Being Barry Hearn

Gi. How much do you owe Steve Davis and vice versa?.
BH: Well, I probably owe God more because as you get older, and closer to Heaven, you become more of a fatalist, and you realise things happen in life for a purpose. My life has been blessed with some incredible pieces of luck – it’s better to be born lucky than good-looking! And timing, as we all know, is everything in life. When Steve Davis walked into that snooker hall in Romford in 1976, well, I knew straight away he was something special. But you have to go back a little before that to appreciate that, actually, I created that bit of good luck with the acquisition of a chain of snooker halls.

Gi: The Lucania Temperance Billiard Halls London Ltd.
BH: Exactly. I was from a working-class background, had no money at all. After training as a chartered accountant I did a stint with a good firm but I always knew I wanted to work for myself. I had the opportunity to take over this chain of snooker halls – no one else could cope with the aggravation that you got with halls in those days (when I was younger I could cope with aggravation; in fact, on a good day, I would rather have it than not!). Anyway, this kid comes in, long ginger hair, arse hanging out the back of his trousers, holes in his jumper. No personality at all and he was from Plumstead, which I didn’t like – South London. I’m an East Londoner. Then I watched him play and what I saw was someone on a different level. A young kid totally dedicated to being the best he could be. I was always dedicated to making money. So that was the start of a great partnership.

Gi. Did you always want to be rich?
BH. Oh yeah, I always wanted to be rich when I was poor, absolutely. But when you are rich you don’t think of it like that. Now I want to create the best events, get the best ratings and –most of all – have the most fun. And if all of that can make you money as well then I think you’ve cracked it. And over 35 years I think I’ve totally cracked it because I’ve had an unbelievable life and made an unbelievable amount of money. And I’ve reached the age now where I can sit here and tell it the way it is. What was it someone said to me the other day...oh yeah, Bernie Ecclestone. He said, ‘you acquire the ability to tell the truth with age’. In other words, when you’re young and just starting out you tend to say what you think you have to say; as you get older you acquire integrity and principles you didn’t have before. So, what do I owe Davis? I could make an argument to say nothing I have achieved would have been possible without Steve. Without me I still think he would have been the best snooker player in the world, so I owe him more than he owes me. Would he have made as much money and been as famous without me is questionable, in all honesty. But he would still have been a huge success. The two of us have been best friends for 35 years, so we must be doing something right.

Gi: Was Steve single-handedly responsible for the explosion in snooker in the 1980s?
BH: No, not really. The snooker explosion was a result of the number of characters out there playing the game. I bought the snooker halls in 1974, and although Pot Black had been on the BBC from 1969 (in black and white!), they didn’t start televising the World Snooker Championships until 1976, by which time I owned the biggest chain of snooker halls in the UK. Which I bought at a price which didn’t justify that. Again, timing was everything. The BBC going crazy over snooker, coupled with the number of characters out there who were all different led to the explosion. Steve was part of the cast and developed into the leading role but there were a lot of other players – Alex Higgins, Denis Taylor, Terry Griffiths, Ray Reardon – who brought into households a sort of soap opera of sports people. Snooker is obviously a game that sits well on TV, it’s almost hypnotic, difficult to turn over when there’s a good game going on. Played by characters. It’s the reason why the darts has become such huge business now. It’s not rocket science. These guys are entertainers. They came from a background of playing working men’s clubs, exhibitions, hitting trick shots and telling jokes – they could all play. None of them missed, that goes with the turf, but they were more than that. The new generation are just players.

Gi: You could easily draw the same parallels in golf.
BH: Yes, totally. In the old days you would walk around the course with a Lee Trevino or a Seve Ballesteros and you knew you were in for a day out. They had real depth of character and stories to tell you. They had grafted their way to the top. I love the stories you hear and read about these guys and others of their generation. Today, as in so many sports, the kids are cloned so early they really don’t have that character – the emphasis on winning and being technically perfect creates robots. Which is a minus.

Gi: How important is it in any sport to have a stand-out player like a Steve Davis or a Tiger Woods or a Phil ‘the Power’ Taylor?
BH: I think it’s the best you can hope for. With the knowledge that everyone’s career comes to an end at some stage, the demand by the public and TV companies and sponsors to raise the bar in terms of technical quality is enormous. You constantly want to see the best player being challenged. To do that you need the flag-bearer. Tiger Woods was that player for years and he still maintains that level of interest, albeit now more for the fact that his life has become a bit of a soap opera. In terms of titles and stats 15-time world champion Phil Taylor has a better record than Tiger and Federer. Only last weekend he produced the highest ever three-dart average in a televised tournament – 113.6. That’s unreal. It’s yet another example of the way sport demands excellence. As long as the rewards are there, the best players will push the boundaries and standards across the board will continues to rise. On the back of it everyone benefits. Tiger has inflated everyone’s pay-cheque in golf, Phil has done the same thing in darts. Ten years ago a decent darts pro would be happy with £100 for an evening’s exhibition; today it’s £1,000.

Gi: What would you say has been your single greatest sporting moment going back to that golden era of the 1980s?
BH: Steve winning the world championships in 1981. Bear in mind that up to that moment our main bread and butter was driving up and down motorways looking for challenge matches. We had no money. I used to gamble, Steve would play. I would stake the games. I used to give him 25 quid to play and we would go looking for the best players at halls everywhere. And we used to clean up. I would give him bonuses for winning. Some nights we had seven or eight grand on a game. You could buy a house for that in those days. I think we set up around 33 of those matches and he lost two. Although I’m 10 years older than he is, we became as close as brothers. For practice, Steve would give me a 70-point start and we would play the best of 101 games. The loser had to wash the winner’s car. I never beat him once. From the moment he turned pro in 1978 I told everyone he was going to be the best in the world. People thought it was just Barry shouting his mouth off. Well, the when it all came together with Steve winning that final, it was just an unbelievable experience for the two of us.

Gi: Was the snooker model one you then looked to replicated with the other sports that caught your attention?
BH: There are a lot of influences that make up my perception of how a sport should be represented. I don’t get involved in any sport unless I like it. I’ve never played anything in my life up to a quality standard. I’ve always been a gold medal for enthusiasm and bronze for ability. So the first question is do I like it? Would I want to watch it? Second, I look for the characters who play the sport and the standard they play at. It’s important they play at the very highest level. Then I put my TV hat on and ask myself ‘Is this going to get a rating?’. Can I build this in such a way that it gets a TV rating that will expand the game and bring in more money, because I’m only interested in going forward. Most of the things I’ve touched have been successful. Some have been spectacularly successful, and, please God, will continue to be so.

Gi: When did you first get involved with the PGA EuroPro Tour?
BH: Back in early 2002 there were two developmental tours operating [below the European Tour-backed Challenge Tour], the Mastercard Tour and the EuroPro Tour. I like golf. I’m an 18-handicapper who on a good day can play to 10 (on a bad day you’d think I’ve never held a club in my life). I was invited to help with the EuroPro Tour, and I thought why not? The tour was running but not making any money. So I took it over and the first thing I did was bring in television on all events. This was key. I have a great relationship with Sky Sports – in fact Matchroom Sport provides Sky Sports with 8% of its annual production. As you can imagine, putting the EuroPro on TV created a few ripples within the PGA who were running the Mastercard Tour. Players were asking why their rivals on the EuroPro Tour were playing on better golf courses and enjoying all this TV coverage. So I sat down with Sandy Jones, chief executive of the PGA, who I’d rate as one of the nicest and most honourable people I have met in sport, not just golf. He recognised that the EuroPro Tour had the potential to put the Mastercard Tour out of business, so we agreed to merge the two and leverage our respective strengths. As a result we have the significant credibility of the PGA on one side while we take care of staging and all the commercial deals on the other. I retain 100% of the action and pay the PGA a sanction fee. We struck a great deal, basically. My involvement in golf is the smallest division in Matchroom Sport but a huge source of enjoyment and my relationship with the PGA has never been anything but exemplary. As opposed to the European Tour, which has given us no help whatsoever.

Gi: If you were given the choice to run either the European Tour or the PGA Tour in America which would you choose?
BH: I don’t think I’m really qualified – and I wouldn’t actually want – to run either. But if I had to pick one it would be the PGA Tour in America. It’s a much better business model in my eyes. The European Tour has a great brand, though the name, of course, is a total misnomer. I think they do a lot of things very well, but you only have to look at the prize funds and the TV audiences, with the odd exceptions, to see they are a long way apart.

Gi: A number of stars have graduated from the PGA EuroPro Tour to become winners on the main tour – has that helped you in negotiations to get more recognition for the PGA EuroPro Tour?
BH: In a word, no. My big grouse with the European Tour – and they won’t agree with this at all but I don’t care – is their scant regard for what the PGA EuroPro Tour has achieved in its 10-year history, i.e. provided a professionally run developmental circuit for up and coming young professionals. Perhaps the fact it’s not under their control is the problem. Our leading five players on the Order of Merit get dispensation to Stage 2 of Q School and they also get a decent category on the Challenge Tour. Big deal. The way things are going most of our events are as big as Challenge Tour events. And just look at the list of players to have come through recently – Graeme Storm, Richard Finch, Ross Fisher. Louis Oosthuizen played on our tour for two years and never did better than fifth. Now I tell all of the young kids who come through that if they can finish better than fifth on the PGA EuroPro Tour they could win the Open!

Gi: What would you like the European Tour to offer you?
BH: I just wish they [the European Tour] would embrace it a little more. They need to get off their high horse and actually reward us with dispensation to the final stages of Q School, and maybe even look at rewarding the winner of our Order of Merit with the occasional invite to a full European Tour event. Well, trying to talk to them... I would have a better conversation talking to that brick wall. George O’Grady? What a waste of time talking to him. Quote me. Where’s his vision? And he’s supposed to be in charge.

Gi: Does the Barry Hearn mindset make you determined to make the PGA EuroPro Tour bigger than the Challenge Tour?
BH: No, no. I could make the PGA EuroPro Tour bigger than the Challenge Tour in a heartbeat if I wanted to. But I’m 63. I’ve had a lifetime of wars with various organisations and sporting bodies. Most of which I’ve won. Not all. But there comes a time when you sit back and ask yourself do I really need that aggravation? Right now I’m very happy with the progression of the PGA EuroPro Tour and on a personal level I’m enjoying the development of darts into a global sport. We’ve taken the prize money from half a million to six million pounds. The players love it. It’s such a pleasure to work with them. It will change over time, of course it will. The players will all get their managers and agents and all sorts of demands will come along – that’s the nature of the beast. As Micky Duff once said to me, ‘If you want loyalty, buy a dog’.

Gi: In terms of events how does the PGA EuroPro Tour shape us this year and what are your ambitions going forward?
BH: The tour shapes up really well this year with some great venues such as Fota Island, Galgorm Castle and Burhill. We are just about to sign a contract for the Tour Championship which will be staged at the end of September and once that is done we are set for what should be another extremely successful year. The way the tour is set up it costs each player £275 to enter an event and the prize fund is £40,000 with £10,000 of this going to the winner. So there are significant rewards on offer. Going forward the important thing is that we continue to find the best possible courses to play on and continue to improve the TV production so that the viewing figures continue to rise. And if we do that I think we will continues to see great young talent emerge following the likes of Ross Fisher, Richard Finch, Graeme Storm and Gary Wolstenholme, who prepared for the European Senior Tour with a number of outings at our events last year.

Gi: How tough is it raising investment in the current climate?
BH: It is tough out there but we believe in the tour as a product and once we have a sponsor on board they realise what a great marketing and hospitality tool it is, not just using the exposure their company receives but by utilising the Pro-Ams for their clients to play in. Danny Nickless does a great job for the tour in helping sponsors to maximise the opportunity, and it really is a great way for any company to entertain and in which sport do you actually get to play with the participating professionals the day before they compete?

Gi: The schedule seems quite concentrated in the UK – any plans to expand more into Europe?
BH: The majority of events are actually in England, although we are fortunate to be travelling to two great venues in Galgorm Castle and Fota Island this year in Northern and Southern Ireland. It is frustrating that the Welsh and Scottish Golf organisations don’t seem to want to support the Tour where the majority of their countrymen ply their trade. Things seem to be very different in Ireland and Northern Ireland where we have been welcomed with open arms. Perhaps this attitude explains why those countries have been so successful in churning out world-class golfers in recent years. They support golf at every level. The one PGA EuroPro event that is always staged abroad is the season-ending finale, the Tour Championship, the contract for this year's event we are just about to sign. In recent years this has been staged at Vilamoura Victoria, The Azores, Aphrodite Hills and Les Bordes, which for me is easily the best course in Europe. Last year Aphrodite Hills were fantastic – what a world-class venue that is.

Gi: I read in the Guardian a piece in which you said you are always looking for new formats in snooker. Does golf need to do likewise, in your opinion?
BH: I’ve talked about this with Chubby [Chandler]. There are loads of different ways in which you could spice things up. Your readers could probably suggest a few ideas that would work. For a start, why does tournament golf have to be over four rounds? Why can’t they be 18 or 26 holes? Imagine a big money 18-hole sprint where you get only one round to shoot the low number. Now we’re talking entertainment. Attention spans are shorter. We all know that. The viewing public want to be entertained and you have to ask if that is happening at the moment. I was watching golf on Sky Sports just last week, the Sicilian Open. There were no spectators on the course. Well my question is this: it’s great to put on these events and keep the players busy out there playing golf, but what good is it doing the game and where does it leave you when the next round of TV negotiations is due? I think where the PGA Tour has been very clever is in the FedEx series, because they talk about it all year. They talk about it on air during someone else’s event. Brilliant commercial idea and it holds interest.

Gi: The multi-faceted platforms that are available these days will surely feature in the future success of all sports?
BH: Without a doubt. These days we are living in a different audience and the levels of technology and innovation we are seeing will impact hugely on sports. The basic golf model is a great model and I’ve copied it religiously in almost all of my own events – darts and snooker – from the Q School element to first-round losers getting nothing because they haven’t made ‘the cut’. But there is a much bigger article here, one that we should perhaps explore at a later date, as it gets technical with all the new platforms and the social networking opportunities etc., a brave new world of integrated formats and different broadcasting deals.

Gi: Former European Tour boss Ken Schofield has just been announced as the chairman of PowerPlay Golf, an interesting 9-hole 2- flag format basically aimed at injecting excitement the same way 20 Twenty format has in cricket. What do you think of that initiative?
BH: See, the difference with Ken Schofield is he’s straight. You know exactly where he’s coming from. He’s in your face at a meeting over a glass of red wine and you leave knowing exactly where you stand. No bullshit. He doesn’t fob you off, or not answer letters for three months, or ignore phone calls. I know exactly where I stand. Schofield would have a row with you. I love people like that. I don’t mind being straightened out and Schofield was brilliant at it. So I would expect Ken to do well with PowerPlay Golf. It sounds like a good idea. It’s innovative. We have looked at a lot of new formats – Power Snooker, 6-Red Snooker, 10 minute shoot-outs... most won’t work. But the day you stop looking is the day you may as well give up looking for the next one that does.

Gi: Here's a question for you: what would happen if a snooker player spat on the table after missing a pot?
BH: He’s straight in front of the disciplinary board and hit with a huge fine.

Gi: That was a facetious question, but as much a golfer as a sports promoter, what do you make of Tiger Woods’ behaviour lately?
BH: He has always been like it – we’ve just ignored his behaviour because he was always winning. Like all geniuses, Tiger is flawed and now he’s losing it seems to me everyone’s taking the moral high ground. If anything I feel sympathy for Tiger because it should have been clamped down on 10 years ago. I’m not excusing his conduct, because at times it’s disgraceful. But you have to put it into perspective. He talks a good game with this line on how he’s changing, but he hasn’t. What did Tiger get fined for that incident in Dubai? Two grand. Why not fine him £100,000? The thing I believe is that you educate the players, you make them aware of the rules, and then you punish them. So, let’s say it’s £2,000 for the first offence. Next time it’s £20,000, and then £100,000. I think you’d then see a response.

Gi: Out of all the snooker players, who is the best golfer?
BH: Stephen Hendry, I’d say. And Stuart Bingham is close to scratch. There are quite a few good golfers among the snooker boys. But then, they used to get a lot of time off. They don’t anymore.

Gi: What’s your favourite golf course?
BH: Shadow Creek in Las Vegas. Without a doubt. I play it five or six times a year, so you could say it’s my home course. It’s not difficult for a good player, but it is truly spectacular, a Tom Fazio design carved out of the Nevada Desert. It was built by the casino boss Steve Wynn who built Shadow Creek when he built the Bellagio. It’s a living example of what silly money can buy. There are over 200 species of trees on the property and every creek, lake and waterfall was created by man. There is extraordinary wildlife running round the place. As they say in the literature, if you have one round of golf left in your bag make it Shadow Creek [although to do so you will need to be a high-rolling guest at the MGM Grand to be eligible to play]. Tiger set a new course record there a couple of years ago – a 61 with a double bogey at the 2nd. His card is in the clubhouse along with a full description of the clubs he hit. I remember one day hitting my best ever drive at a par-five, I had 246 yards left. Tiger hit it with a 7-iron. It’s humbling.

Gi: Who do you most admire in your field?
BH: I came from the Mark McCormack mould I suppose. In the early days. I knew him well enough. A smart bloke in some ways, not so nice in others. The same could be said of me I suppose. But a good pro. There are one or two people I look at in administration. Few people in the smaller sports have the intelligence or the commercial ability to do their job properly but they have a lot of passion. The smart people are those who recognise when they need help and don’t let their ego stand in their way of asking. You know when you play golf with someone who is a far better player than you – and the same is true in business. You have to be big enough to recognise that there are people out there better placed to make what you have a success. If I had to nominate an individual I admire it would be Richard Scudamore, chief executive of the FA Premier League. He’s done a fantastic job – although I’m suing them for millions at the moment. Obviously my friend at the European Tour is not on that list.

Gi: Who do you most admire in sport generally?
BH: I’m in awe of any sports person with a special ability. And that special ability extends to what a great fisherman can do – I love to fish but I will stand next to a top angler and think ‘this is just another world’. It’s like golf. I hit my best drive and a pro stands up there and tanks it 80 yards by me. I’m in awe of that. I used to fight a bit as a kid and I wasn’t really any good. But I love to sit ringside and watch the top boys and I’m in awe of them. I’m very competitive. I used to run marathons all over the world. I’m a good plodder.

Gi: Have you ever seen Ian Woosnam or Sam Torrance play snooker?
BH: I have spent a bit of time with Sam, and he’s very good. Really likes his poker, too. I play poker with Sam. He is one of my favourite lifestyle people. I can’t ever remember having anything but a great laugh with him. Woosie I don’t know so much but I’m aware he’s a useful snooker player.

Gi: Have you seen much sports coverage in 3D
BH: I don’t have 3D at home, but I have seen some sports in 3D and quite like it. For darts it’s phenomenal. The darts look like they are coming straight at you. The thing I love about Sky Sports is that they are prepared to invest in technical innovation. I’m biased. I owe Rupert Murdoch and Sky a huge thank you for supporting me. There’s no question that when it comes to innovation they lead the way. I think at the moment they have 50,000 3D customers out of a base of 10 million, and so to make that type of investment takes balls. But Murdoch’s always had balls. Sky Sports has been great for so many niche sports and it’s been great for golf. All of the events on the PGA EuroPro circuit this season will be screened.

Gi: What for you is the greatest sporting event to be at?
BH: That’s such a tough call. Augusta would be up there, and the Grand National, too. They are all different. People often ask me what are my favourite sporting moments and right now I could give you five: Steve Davis winning the World Championship in 1981, Chris Eubank beating Nigel Benn in 1990, Leyton Orient scoring 20 seconds from the end of the season to get a promotion, Jonathan Tehoue’s goal the other night against Arsenal (I still see the ball going into the net when I shut my eyes at night), the London marathon, first marlin I ever caught. Internationally, I would put the Open up there with Augusta, the FA Cup final alongside the World Cup and then the Olympics.

Gi: Are you pleased golf is in the Olympics?
BH: I’m ambivalent to it, to tell you the truth. Because I live in a world where I’m surrounded by sports snobbery. People tell me darts is not a sport but a fat guy laying on the floor shooting at a target is a sport. And synchronised swimming is a sport. But a guy who spends 365 days a year perfecting his arrows, that’s not a sport?

Gi: Finally, given the on-going headlines it's tough to avoid the football. For anyone who hasn't followed the saga, briefly explain the situation that exists re West Ham and the Olympic Stadium.
BH: Unfortunately for everybody, the Olympic Stadium is fundamentally flawed in its design and is not capable of hosting anything. The people who have been involved and made the decisions have wasted £600 million of taxpayer’s money, mainly down to the previous government but condoned by the existing one. No one has been held accountable and they are all now running around looking for face-saving measures that will give the stadium some sort of legacy. Along come West Ham, who are clearly desperate and prepared to play in an open field – which is effectively what the pitch is with the track around it. They have been welcomed by the government as the end of the problem but really it’s only the start of the solution. The whole process is flawed under European law, under the Competition Laws and Premier League rules. The worst thing that could happen for these people, their worst nightmare, was Jonathan Tehoue scoring that 88th minute equaliser against Arsenal the other night because God decided that the little man must have his day. And he decided to give me a £1 million for the replay and his instructions were quite clear: spend it on legal fees! So we are going to have a lot of fun. All of those involved hope we will go away. And it won’t. We go to judicial review in a few weeks and it could all go on for years.

Gi: Leyton Orient – explain the passion. Or is it strictly business?
BH: My passion has always been a business interest, but I’m afraid football has defeated even me. I’ve had it 16 years, I paid say £2.40 for it, plus a couple of million quid they owed. I’ve lived it now for 16 years and there are times when I’ve thought this is the worst thing I’ve ever done in my life, and then I get those moments when I’m just so happy I bought the club. My wife reads in the papers how much money we have spent on the club – but she forgets what we have made in property. For the last playoff final against Scunthorpe, I had my whole family in the Royal Box, my team walks out at Wembley and we had sold 27,000 tickets. I said to my wife, you know, ‘where we have come from, don’t you think we have had all our money back in one day?’ When you are lying there about to pass into another world, you need a few memories. And that is one I’ll take with me. I still try and run the club like a proper business, still try and limit the losses, but football is a flawed industry.

Gi: As in golf, are the margins between a League 1 side and the top of the Premiership measured in the the tiniest of margins?
BH: Watching that Arsenal game the other night I’m thinking our wage bill is £1.7 million a year and we have a 25-man squad. There wasn’t an Arsenal player on the pitch who wasn’t earning more than £35,000 a week. We drew that game on merit. When you watch a golfer shoot 62 on any circuit, any tour, you know that if he can do that on the big stage he can win. And they can all do it. They are all capable. The consistency is the factor. That extra bit of magic is a factor. They all have their moments.

Gi: What next for Barry Hearn?
BH: I’m just enjoying it all. I’m working harder than I’ve ever worked. The one favour successive governments have done to me is that shares in private companies are not subject to inheritance tax. It’s a legacy. Matchroom Sport is not for sale at any price. I’m pleased my kids are in the business – Katie runs the programming after six years at Sky Sports, Eddie is doing the boxing. I am much more involved in the planning and creative side of events, always looking forward. In fact I’ve just come back from a trip to Thailand where I met with the prime minister to discuss taking the World Cup of Snooker there. I can open the doors. Over the next few years I’ll gradually hand over control and take more of a presidential role. But I still love it. And I’ll tell you something. I have a heart monitor and I take my heart rate as soon as I arrive at work. It goes up eight beats a minute as soon as I reach the office. I love it so much. If the beat goes down, I’m dead.